Curse

Red · Jan 03, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I'm glad he went to all that trouble.
You are the man Lyra.

>_>;

(1234567)

-Sonata- · Jan 03, 2008, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

........I'm glad he went to all that trouble.
You are the man Lyra.

Well, at least you're already wearing the helmet LOL

Nice read Lyra. Best I've had in quite some time.

Bryant Again · Jan 03, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The next person who calls me "he" gets kicked in the head. ;p

So now we know! Based on some previous posts, I now know quite a bit about your character ; ) (not your GW character, but you personally.)

Nonetheless, another very well written thread, Lyra.

zwei2stein · Jan 03, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Shame it didn't bring any controversy, this way is will be buried under tons of worthless but flame inspiring threads.

For me, I do everything to be able to PvE in "Player" context, such as having heroes equipped the same way on all characters (so that my primaries are exchangeable by changing character and nothing else), or having all outposts unlocked... while storyline is unchangeable, its basically same "you can affect it" in PvP where your progress in halls is not based on your quality, but is also preset by game (sequence of maps) and can be ended by you failing, but you are free to restart (just like you would restart normal mission). Eventually as you win, you still cant dictate stuff like rewards.

carnage-runner · Jan 03, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

As a summary of things that are, things that could be, and things that probably should be, I think you did a fantastic job at summarizing the current state of things. I do have some small ideas to express pertaining to what you have written, such as PVP vs PVE. Pvp we all know as player vs player, and it has account wide accomplishments. Pve is respectively player vs environment. Now the key word there is environment. You are saying that the "tutorial", or mission and questing portion of the game is all tutorial work. So things such as LB/SS points are a part of that tutorial. Then after this point in the game you say the Pve turns somewhat into Pvp where in a sence players are fighting with and against eachother to find new, faster ways to succeed. So according to that, shouldn't all things after the "tutorial" be account wide? By all things, I literally mean all things. The Gaurdian tittle track, Wisdom, Treasure Hunter, Drunkard, and Sweettooth. That being said, I have to ask you directly, should Max Tittles be account based or character based? It forces you to grind, giving the game purpose, but it does not directly effect your storyline. So in a clearer way, shouldn't it be PvP orriented, account based, as apposed to PvE orriented, character based, under the belief that it does not directly affect your progression through the game? Things like protector and cartographer I believe are character based because they rely on you doing quests, and missions, but surivor doesn't. Isn't it more of a ,"You've gone without dying for a long time doing something." Like your point on how it doens't have direction, guidance, or reason to your success in the game. It doesn't tell you how long to spend obtaining it, or why you should. Getting protector is saying, beat the game and learn more about the story line. Cartographer is telling you to quest and adventure. That's just my two bits on titles and what you've said. My opinion, re-evaluate them all, and base them on whether or not they are important to the story lines evolution and progression. If they are, character based and reward people for them(they have with skills), if they aren't, account based and don't reward people for them. Not trying to argue in any way at all.. Just a thought... a rather lengthy one at that, but none the less still just a thought.

Red · Jan 03, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

What SHOULD the focus of this game be? I'd ask what the focus of any game should be, but we should focus on Guild Wars, I guess.

At the core of any discussion, is the question that I think we posters have some real disagreement on. Should Guild Wars be largely a character-based or player-based experience?

Aerian_Skybane · Jan 03, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Though I think you may have misunderstood me. I didn't say it would help my title track because I think they'll become account based. It will help because maxing grind titles involving combat will be much easier. I should have explained that in more detail.

Whoops, sorry buddy. I was quick to the punch and assumed you were thinking Lyra was saying "account-wide titles for everyone!". My apologies. I shall insert foot in mouth.

Oh and Lyra, I am very sorry. I am jaded to the masses of weird males playing female characters and then bringing them over to RL. I am embarrassed

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 03, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

What SHOULD the focus of this game be? I'd ask what the focus of any game should be, but we should focus on Guild Wars, I guess.

At the core of any discussion, is the question that I think we posters have some real disagreement on. Should Guild Wars be largely a character-based or player-based experience?

I think it should be player based, but what with the high quantity of grind and such, ArenaNet clearly has a burning desire to make it as character based as possible.

lyra_song · Jan 03, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

redfeather: go to youtube and look up "Meia Lua Reversao". Thats what i feel like kicking with right now.

zwei2stein: Even though maps in PvP are not player controlled, the experience in PvP is. For example, the builds you run into, and how the enemy behaves is PURELY by a player. PvE monsters do not grief, they do not resign, they dont trash talk, they don't phrase. They builds and quality of combat are dictated by the meta and players and not a preset monsters AI. How much fun youre going to have is based for the most part because of other people you are playing with and against.

While your approach and mindset to PvE might be player-based, the game mechanics for the most part certainly are not. Otherwise, all heroes would be shared among all characters.

carnage-runner: Well the problem is you are taking pure grind titles with no storyline connection and comparing them with story based titles. And then we take into consideration its current usage of the title and if it can/should be account based or character based.

Drunkard and Sweettooth - Consumables titles. These are PURE grind titles. Its strictly a money sink. Theres no quest or story or mission tied to these titles. These titles have no detriment or benefit if it was account OR character based. However...making them account based would defeat the purpose them being money sinks, since to be most effective in draining your cash and time, it should be character based. I can give or take it, I really don't care about these titles.

Guardian - Although this is optional, this are DIRECTLY tied to mission performance and effectiveness as well as mission progress. I don't see how this can become account based, since characters do not share mission success/bonuses/failures. At the same time, a player playing through Prophecies as a monk will have a different experience playing it as an Elementalist, so i dont see this being share-able. The guardian title is proof that you can beat the game as a monk and get all bonuses/masters, this is unrelated to your performance as an elementalist.

Cartographer - Again, this is tied to mission/game progress. You cannot get 100% cartographer without beating the game (or at least getting to the VERY VERY LAST parts). This is unshare-able because progress is not shared by characters.

Personally I would like to point out a major flaw in the account based titles like Hero or Gladiator or Champion. Rank is gained by a player, regardless of the class they play. A R10 warrior is also a R10 monk, even if the player has never played monk in their whole life.

Perhaps a good way to look at it is CLASS based and add more specific titles. R10 warrior is only an Rzero monk, which is more appropriate for that person.

By pointing out this flaw, we can see that making some titles like Guardian/Protector/Cartographer cannot work because it falls for the same exact flaw.

A Guardian monk is not a Guardian elementalist, no matter how good the player is. The title is proof of progress.

Personally i see PvE storymode as tutorial and High-End PvE (UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA) as the end game contents. PvP is seperate since there is no tutorial to PvP other than to PvP.

-----------------
Red: I think the focus should be FUN, and that should be the guiding factor, not strictly to player or character based. Focusing on this is too narrow, and we can have fun mixing up both.

Zahr: Theres no mandatory grinds in the game....

Shadow Spirit · Jan 03, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Great OP Lyra!! This is the most intelligent thread I have ever read on Guru. Let's keep it going folks...

I think that one of the great things about GW is that you can choose if it is character based or player based. I think it largely depends upon the individual.

Many people like to RP and for them the game is definitely character based.

I tend to find it player based, as I like to play multiple classes/characters and try to increase MY skill and knowledge of those classes. That's how I have fun and enjoy my time on GW.

I do think that ANet has been moving in more of a character based direction recently though with the emphasis they have placed on titles and the HOM.

But again, grinding those titles and filling that HOM is entirely each individual's choice. I would rather spend my time trying out a Paragon for the first time...

In conclusion, Choice FTW!!

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Even though maps in PvP are not player controlled, the experience in PvP is. For example, the builds you run into, and how the enemy behaves is PURELY by a player. PvE monsters do not grief, they do not resign, they dont trash talk, they don't phrase. They builds and quality of combat are dictated by the meta and players and not a preset monsters AI.

This is true only if you're playing Guildwars in a vaccuum. PvE players are competing with one another, developing thier own metas for dealing with the static monsters and otherwise engaging in the same sets of competitive behaviours that exist in PvP. Which is why the next statement applies equally to both PvE and PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How much fun youre going to have is based for the most part because of other people you are playing with and against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Guardian - Although this is optional, this are DIRECTLY tied to mission performance and effectiveness as well as mission progress. I don't see how this can become account based, since characters do not share mission success/bonuses/failures. At the same time, a player playing through Prophecies as a monk will have a different experience playing it as an Elementalist, so i dont see this being share-able. The guardian title is proof that you can beat the game as a monk and get all bonuses/masters, this is unrelated to your performance as an elementalist.

I'm not really interested in whether guardian is account based or character based as achieving it does not make your character stronger than then next person's, however I need to point out that segregating based on class is meaningless because builds within a class vary as much as builds between classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Personally I would like to point out a major flaw in the account based titles like Hero or Gladiator or Champion. Rank is gained by a player, regardless of the class they play. A R10 warrior is also a R10 monk, even if the player has never played monk in their whole life.

Perhaps a good way to look at it is CLASS based and add more specific titles. R10 warrior is only an Rzero monk, which is more appropriate for that person.

By pointing out this flaw, we can see that making some titles like Guardian/Protector/Cartographer cannot work because it falls for the same exact flaw.

A Guardian monk is not a Guardian elementalist, no matter how good the player is. The title is proof of progress.

See above. One could equally say that An SS/Warder is not a guardian MB/HP EMo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Zahr: Theres no mandatory grinds in the game....

Except the skill effecting titles

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

This is true only if you're playing Guildwars in a vaccuum. PvE players are competing with one another, developing thier own metas for dealing with the static monsters and otherwise engaging in the same sets of competitive behaviours that exist in PvP. Which is why the next statement applies equally to both PvE and PvP.

The only competitive PvE are challenge missions and aspenwood/jade quarry, the latter falling more into PvP.

Once you enter a zone, only the persons you invited in your party affect your experience (people harrassing you via PM don't count).

Racing to find treasure or build armor or farm faster or some other arbitrary goal is competitive behaviour, and can influence what your goals might be, but the actual gameplay is still versus monsters.

Quote:

I'm not really interested in whether guardian is account based or character based as achieving it does not make your character stronger than then next person's, however I need to point out that segregating based on class is meaningless because builds within a class vary as much as builds between classes.

It doesn't make you stronger. All it is an indicator that you did that goal with that character, regardless of the build you chose.

But guess what. If you get guardian with a monk, you used a monk. Not a warrior. And a monk cannot equal a warrior.A monk is a monk, a warrior is a warrior.

Segregating via class is not an accurate way to predict player performance either, but since Guild Wars doesn't keep track of various combat stats like Damage caused, damage taken, monsters kill, health healed, damage prevented, attacks blocked, attacks interrupted, enchantments removed, hexes removed, conditions given, conditions added, etc. etc, We do not have a true way to measure player's performance. Still, my idea is better than /rank as it is ;P

Quote:

See above. One could equally say that An SS/Warder is not a guardian MB/HP EMo.

This would be true, if you couldn't reset your builds and each character was locked into one build once you set them into it. But they aren't.

If you could swap out your character's primary profession, there would be no need for character based titles. Of course, there would be no need to replay the game either.

Quote:

Except the skill effecting titles

They are mandatory because...? PvE skills are fun, overpowered and useful, but hardly mandatory.

Theres no mandatory PvE skills. I've beaten Nightfall without using Lightbringers Gaze.

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The only competitive PvE are challenge missions and aspenwood/jade quarry, the latter falling more into PvP.

Once you enter a zone, only the persons you invited in your party affect your experience (people harrassing you via PM don't count).

Racing to find treasure or build armor or farm faster or some other arbitrary goal is competitive behaviour, and can influence what your goals might be, but the actual gameplay is still versus monsters.

That is the way that you play and thats fine, but it is simply not true accross the board. I'm not playing against the monsters in GW anymore than I'm playing against the bunkers in golf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

They are mandatory because...? PvE skills are fun, overpowered and useful, but hardly mandatory.

Theres no mandatory PvE skills. I've beaten Nightfall without using Lightbringers Gaze.

They're mandatory because without them the playing fields are not level. Its no fun playing against people who have a giant head start on you and its no fun playing against people that you have a giant head start on.

Zhack · Jan 04, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Imo everything should be account based, even protector titles, however to make this work there would have to be a major overhaul of all of gw, which i am hoping gw2 will be.
Personally i think that if you have achieved something once, you should not have to achieve it again just because you want to try another character.
Doing the same thing over and over and over again just to reach what you have already reached is just stupid.
If all of your characters add to your knowledge about the game, why should not all your characters add to the one thing that shows your time spent/skill/knowledge about the game (currently titles).
Everyone does not like to play the same character for month after month, so why punish everyone that want to learn about the other classes and get better at the game as a whole (imo you cant know the game unless you have seen all sides of it).
So, in gw2, please make the account, aka the actual player skill, the thing that shows other people what you have accomplished, and not just a single over played character.
/end rant

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

That is the way that you play and thats fine, but it is simply not true accross the board. I'm not playing against the monsters in GW anymore than I'm playing against the bunkers in golf.

How did you use golf as an analogy? You aren't playing against people because Guild Wars has no score.

If you and your buddy decide to race to see who can fill up their HOM the fastest, thats competition, but it isn't spurred by any specific in game mechanics. PvE has no competition against people, except in the Challenge missions and the aspenwood/jade quarry as ive mentioned.

As such, the players have no real choice, since all the PvE interaction is NPC controlled. The only real choice is to play or not play a mission or quest.

Quote:

They're mandatory because without them the playing fields are not level. Its no fun playing against people who have a giant head start on you and its no fun playing against people that you have a giant head start on.

Last I checked you can't use PvE skills in PvP...so how can you be "against" people?

You could say its not fun to try to get into groups when other people have higher PvE skill rank and can get into groups easier than you, but this is also not a gameplay competitive mechanic.

Plus Ive already outlined in my OP my idea to give people who beat the game access to max attribute after you beat the game.

--------
Zhack - Even in PvP, each instance of battle is a different instance.

Lets say you fought a team in PvP, and you won.

The next time you meet that same team, its not the same battle, your previous victory is irrelevant except in increasing your skill against that team, only the current situation of the battle matters.

You don't have the right to say "Oh i gotta fight again!" when it was your choice to fight again.

Repeating something by nature is repetitive.

Its not about punishing anyone.
Its the matter of starting over anything.

Play a game of chess.
Then start a new game.
Why should the previous game matter except in giving you insight into how to play the next game?

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How did you use golf as an analogy? You aren't playing against people because Guild Wars has no score.

If you and your buddy decide to race to see who can fill up their HOM the fastest, thats competition, but it isn't spurred by any specific in game mechanics. PvE has no competition against people, except in the Challenge missions and the aspenwood/jade quarry as ive mentioned.

As such, the players have no real choice, since all the PvE interaction is NPC controlled. The only real choice is to play or not play a mission or quest.

Golf is the perfect RL sporting activity to make comparisons. You enter an instance by yourself (zone==course), overcome environmental obstacles (bunkers/waterfeatures==monsters) to achieve a goal (ball in hole==boss dead) and get a score (shots==/age).

You seem ok with the fact that competitive missions are played against other people, you just need to realise that the only difference between them and normal pve is the fact that the scores are published.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Last I checked you can't use PvE skills in PvP...so how can you be "against" people?

The same way you play against people in golf - you complete the course and compare scores.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You could say its not fun to try to get into groups when other people have higher PvE skill rank and can get into groups easier than you, but this is also not a gameplay competitive mechanic.

Not really fussed about pugging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Plus Ive already outlined in my OP my idea to give people who beat the game access to max attribute after you beat the game.

One I'm quite happy with, I was taking issue with your assertion that there's no mandatory grind.

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

One I'm quite happy with, I was taking issue with your assertion that there's no mandatory grind.

Which i still disagree. What in the game forces you to grind?

And by force I mean theres no alternatives or choices, and its not compulsion or impulse.

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Which i still disagree. What in the game forces you to grind?

And by force I mean theres no alternatives or choices, and its not compulsion or impulse.

There is no way to compete against a fully pve leveled team without grinding out all the rep levels yourself.

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

There is no way to compete against a fully pve leveled team without grinding out all the rep levels yourself.

Lets say that we are talking about competitive PvE (like a challenge mission like Dragon's Throat).

What in the challenge missions is "mandatory" in any sense? All challenge missions are optional and not part of the primary story quest/mission tree.

How is this forcing anyone into doing anything (mandatory grind)? What about the rest of the game?

Are you saying because Timmy has max level Ursan skills, that you are forced to grind for Ursan, even though you've never met this person and this person's gameplay has no effect on you (unless its psychological like envy/jealously/self-esteem issues)?

I really don't understand how someone else's pve skill level "forces" me to do something.

Because...I've never maxed any PvE skill tracks, and I have guildmates who have maxed pve title tracks.

Competition in Guild Wars is purely up to the player.
If you find competition in PvE, thats all you, its not the game.
If you feel the need to max out everything, thats still all you.
No gameplay mechanics forces you to max out the PvE skill title tracks, since they are designed to be optional titles.

Of course i could go into another one of my arguements about how "If you give someone an easier option, everyone picks the easier option and then it doesnt become optional but really because mandatory", however you would have to prove that maxing out title tracks is easier and the logical mandatory choice for every player when faced with the decision of doing that or some other alternative choice in situations regarding their builds.

Its easier to just be better and not rely on the crutch than take the time to max it out. To me, playing the normal way without relying on PvE skills at max strength and being able to handle ANYTHING is way easier than taking the boring time to grind to max a pve skill title track just to be able to use certain skills at their max power.

cellardweller · Jan 04, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Lets say that we are talking about competitive PvE (like a challenge mission like Dragon's Throat).

What in the challenge missions is "mandatory" in any sense? All challenge missions are optional and not part of the primary story quest/mission tree.

They are exactly as mandatory as as any other part of the game. To state the obvious One can't play in dragon's throat without playing in dragons throat any more than Once can compete in DoA without playing in DoA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How is this forcing anyone into doing anything (mandatory grind)? What about the rest of the game?

The mandatory grind exists because PvE skills cannot be used at full effectiveness without doing it. Without fully effective PvE skills level playing fields don't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Are you saying because Timmy has max level Ursan skills, that you are forced to grind for Ursan, even though you've never met this person and this person's gameplay has no effect on you (unless its psychological like envy/jealously/self-esteem issues)?

To stay with the golf analogy, I don't care about Timmy any more than I care about his handicap. I do care about the latest club tournament and the course records. It does matter when half the people in the tournament are hitting off the ladies tee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I really don't understand how someone else's pve skill level "forces" me to do something.

Because...I've never maxed any PvE skill tracks, and I have guildmates who have maxed pve title tracks.

From my perspective, your way of playing is just as alien. Without measuring and comparing your performance you have no way to determine success or failure which takes any enjoyment out of the game. The difference is that I'm willing to accept that people play the game differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Competition in Guild Wars is purely up to the player.
If you find competition in PvE, thats all you, its not the game.
If you feel the need to max out everything, thats still all you.
No gameplay mechanics forces you to max out the PvE skill title tracks, since they are designed to be optional titles.

I've already shown you how GW PvE is just as competitive as Golf, unless you're going to tell me competition is not part of golf either.